Author Topic: Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan  (Read 8575 times)

Offline Porpman

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Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« on: July 22, 2007, 06:47:18 AM »
Ok. I just wanted to make sure that shp5 and I played this right.

I was playing a <laser>/<torpedo> build. Sph5 was playing his droid reduction build.

1) I played #009 Dogfighting. (Def+1, <laser> - +3 Attack vs <laser>)
2) He played #086 Assassin Droid (Att+1, <droid> - opponent discards played card and ignores its effects, opponent can play a new card)
3) As my new card, I played #100 Obi-Wan Kenobi (Att+1, <force> - if opponents played card is a <droid>, discard opponents card and ignore the effects)

So, since I reversed his Assassin droid and it's effects are ignored, the net result is I'm right back to having #009 Dogfighting in play and he doesn't have a card in play, when we hit the base roll phase.

If that's correct, then in the above scenario if I had played Acceptable Loss first, then his unit would get the 3 damage back and my sacrificed ship would be destroyed... again.

All that correct?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 05:49:06 AM by slightlyiffy »


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Offline Atrox7

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 11:34:46 AM »
I don't believe so. Assassin droid had already taken effect when you discarded the first card. There is nothing really left for Obi to "prevent" AKA cancel, since any effect had already taken place. Also, since Obi could not come into play with out the previous card having already taken effect, Obi would not be in play without the text of Assassin, canceling that would in essence cancel it's self. Aside from giving players a migraine thinking about it, this creates a time paradox and is beginning to sound more like Star Trek than Star Wars.

Offline mattyh

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 11:36:19 AM »
Yeah, that is a hard one to answer.  But, I think Atrox's answer makes a lot of sense.  Well, as much as an answer about such an issue can make sense.
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Offline Porpman

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 12:24:28 PM »
I offer this argument (posted in a thread on the WK board):

Well, it did resolve. Except then it becomes unresolved. Like the FAQ says:

"If you play Assassin Droid after the opponent plays a card, you essentially nullify the effects of your opponent?s card as if he or she had not played it.... ...(Obi-Wan [BS-100] works the same way.)"

So if Assassin Droid is nullified as if it was never played.... then what? Something has to happen. Obi-Wan directly affects <droid> cards, and AD is a <droid> card. Obi-Wan states "If your opponents card this battle is a <droid> card, he or she discards it and it's effects are ignored".

So, Assassin Droid must be discarded and it's effects ignored. In order to ignore it's effects, everything that happened because of the playing of Assassin Droid must be undone (as per official rulings and the FAQ). Thereby, the original card that was in play goes back into play (because it was never discarded - the discard is ignored), and Obi-Wan was never played (because "another" card could not be played - the "play another card" is ignored). Obi-Wan is discarded because it has finished.

I don't see how it could happen any other way, but my partner disagreed which is why I posted it here. I see others disagree as well. I put it up in the sticky for Deadcat to take a whack at.

One more question that does arise in my mind though.... if what I discribed above is accurate to how it's supposed to happen, if all the effects of Assassin Droid are reversed then would Obi-Wan truely be discarded or would it go back into my hand (because with AD erased it couldn't have been played)?......

---

Here's a more complete quote from the FAQ:
Quote from: FAQ
Originally Posted by FAQ
Q: How does Assassin Droid (BS-#86) work?
A: If you play Assassin Droid after the opponent plays a card, you essentially nullify the effects of your opponent?s card as if he or she had not played it. It essentially works as a time-reversal in most cases. This includes reversing any ?effect? that you did when you played the card, such as a damage counter being removed via Repair (BS-65). (Obi-Wan [BS-100] works the same way.)

This would also allow you to undo the 3 damage effect from Acceptable Loss if your unit isn?t destroyed. Because it completely negates the effect, your opponent would also get back the <troop> unit he or she destroyed when playing Acceptable Loss, with however many damage counters it had at the time.

Because of ?eraser? cards like this, you should generally wait to see which card your
opponent responds with (if any) before you move on to your next action (start removing counters, moving units, and so on).


The FAQ specifically says that effects that have already happened, get undone. Essentially what I did was "erasing an eraser". Everything got undone.

Edit: added FAQ quote.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 12:28:22 PM by Porpman »


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Offline fanaticopposition

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 12:34:26 PM »
Its really quite simple...the effect of the assassin droid took effect and resolved before obi wan was played...it cannot be "reversed as it has already happened. Playing obi wan was the result of the assassin droid removing the card from play.


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Offline Porpman

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 12:47:53 PM »
Ok, but if :
1) Assassin Droid can reverse Acceptable Loss
2) All of the effects of Acceptable Loss have already happened and been processed
3) Obi-Wan works the same way
then Obi-Wan reverses in exactly the same manner as Assassin Droid and reverses whatever Assassin Droid did.

How is this somehow different? Yeah, Obi-Wan could only have been played due to Assassin Droid being played, but where does it say to suddenly completely ignore the effects of Obi-Wan? That's backwards. So what if it's "already happened". As I've said before, the FAQ specifically states that Assassin Droid and Obi-Wan both REVERSE what has ALREADY HAPPENED.

This isn't any different. It's just got more to undo.

Edit: (I'm really enjoying this discussion both here and in the WK forum! Very mentally stimulating! :))
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 12:52:30 PM by Porpman »


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Offline fanaticopposition

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2007, 02:44:59 PM »
Ok, but if :
1) Assassin Droid can reverse Acceptable Loss
2) All of the effects of Acceptable Loss have already happened and been processed
3) Obi-Wan works the same way
then Obi-Wan reverses in exactly the same manner as Assassin Droid and reverses whatever Assassin Droid did.

How is this somehow different? Yeah, Obi-Wan could only have been played due to Assassin Droid being played, but where does it say to suddenly completely ignore the effects of Obi-Wan? That's backwards. So what if it's "already happened". As I've said before, the FAQ specifically states that Assassin Droid and Obi-Wan both REVERSE what has ALREADY HAPPENED.

This isn't any different. It's just got more to undo.

Edit: (I'm really enjoying this discussion both here and in the WK forum! Very mentally stimulating! :))

Well, I'm going to check into it but this game has pretty simple mechanics and if something has already happened I think its to late...this would make Obi-Wan ridiculously powerful and, dare I say it, broken. You have to remember, his card states that if its a droid he discards it and its effects are ignored, but the effect is not something that lasts until the end of the battle but something immediate. Since you can only play one card during a battle expalin why Obi-Wan should be allowed to bring the other card back? Both cards would then be in play and the rules broken by the mechanics. I doubt this is the way it was intended which common sense says what I said previously was correct. You had your chance to play Obi-wan the first time to prevent such an occurence. I think it is meant to be played in a defensive role when a droid card is already present...why else would you play it? In this instance its an attempt to break the mechanics of the game.


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Offline fanaticopposition

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2007, 02:56:14 PM »
Heres the breakdown:

1) dogfight is played
2) assassin droid is played
3) assassin droid affects resolve and you discard your card your opponent may play another card ( this is triggered by the assassin droids effects resolving)
3) Obi-Wan is played (only played because assassin droid resolves)
4) NOW Obi-Wans effects resolve which does nothing because the assassin droid effects have already resolved.


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Offline Porpman

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2007, 05:39:06 PM »
Heres the breakdown:

1) dogfight is played
2) assassin droid is played
3) assassin droid affects resolve and you discard your card your opponent may play another card ( this is triggered by the assassin droids effects resolving)
3) Obi-Wan is played (only played because assassin droid resolves)
4) NOW Obi-Wans effects resolve which does nothing because the assassin droid effects have already resolved.

I disagree. It doesn't matter if it's resolved or not. This is specifically mentioned in the FAQ via Acceptable Loss. Acceptable Loss, which is resolved immediately, is completely reversed as if it had never been played. Obi-Wan does that to Assassin Droid. Anything Assassin Droid did is undone. That's what the card says, and that's how the FAQ says it functions. It's no different.

And how does it make Obi-Wan uber-powerful, but not Assassin Droid? They do the same thing, except Assassin Droid allows another card to be played. Obi-Wan is only good vs <droid> cards, but Assassin Droid is good vs everything when played on a <droid> unit.

What if I had played Assassin Droid as my second card instead? That brings it further out as the Defender would get to play another card. It has to happen that way, it's what the card says.

---

SOMEBODY, ANYBODY..... please find something in anything official that states in any form that Obi-Wan and Assassin Droid or any of the "time-reversal" ilk do not take effect if the previous card had been resolved. Anywhere. Anything official. That seems to be the big hangup, that stuff was "resolved" and finished and therefor cannot be undone/reversed, even though the card text, official rulings, and the FAQ say otherwise.


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Offline Riptide

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2007, 06:45:10 PM »
I think what actually occurs is an infinite loop. As I see it, it breaks down to

1.) dogfight is played
2.) assassin droid is played
3.) assassin droid resolves nullifying dogfight and allowing a new card to be played.
4.) Obi-wan is played
5.) Obi-wan is resolved. This nullifies the affects of Assassin Droid which leads to
     A.) dogfighting is no longer being nullified
     B.) Obi-wan would no longer be a valid play which I think means
           1b.) Obi-wan goes back to your hand
           2b.) Obi-wan's affect is no longer valid, so assassin droid nullifies dogfight
           3b.) Assassin droid allows a new card to be played, this card may be Obi-wan

So from other card games I have played, the person who caused the infinite loop now gets to determine how many times they want to repeat it. Since the players who played Obi-wan caused the infinite loop they would basically be determining how many times they want to play Obi-wan. However eventually they must choose to not play Obi-wan, by either playing another card or not playing a card at all. This would lead to Dogfight being nullified by Assassin Droid.

Now of course I have used precedence from other games, so this is by no means the correct way to interpret it, but I believe a logical one.
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Offline stlnprfln

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2007, 07:44:02 PM »
The FAQ example didn't use the scenario you are using. It shows how AD can time reverse on another card but it doesn't show how it would affect (or be affected by) a card with the same ability as AD. Because if AD ability was nullified the Obi Wan card could not have been played, possibly causing some kind of loop because then AD could have taken affect so I don't know. Also the FAQ example shows 2 cards working on each other. It doesn't show what would happen if a third card is played. Maybe since playing OW as a result of the AD ability it doesn't nullify the AD ability because that would affect the third card in the equation (which would have actually been the first card you played that got replaced by OW). Although you are supposed to resolve all results from cards after all cards are played so maybe it would work. We need Deadcat!!! ;D

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Offline Sanchopanza

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2007, 08:05:10 PM »
Riptide's idea seems to be pretty sound. The flow of the scenario seems to be right there and even though it seems overly simple based on the cards effects it's, again, sound.

AD wipes a card of the table
Obi-wan when played as a result of AD negates AD and it's effects on the round so far, thus, resetting the round (in essance).

Looks like Detention Block AA-23 will be seeing a bit more play in my Droid deck.

We should impliment un-official "Official" stamps to rulings until they are deemed official by an official.

Offline Atrox7

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2007, 11:03:56 PM »
I think I was trying to say the same thing as FanaticOpposition, he is just better at expressing it. I have also taken a more careful look at the FAQ. You may notice it states about Assassin Droid: "It essentially works as a time-reversal in most cases." I would submit this is NOT one of those cases.

The reason is what Porpman listed above for his step 7: "7) Discard Obi-Wan ... or put him back in hand - not sure on that yet (playing Obi-Wan was an effect that would not have happened if AD had never been played)" A true Time Reversal means ALL of the effects of AD are ignored, including the play of Obi-Wan, which would mean Obi-Wan was not played either, which would mean AD was still in effect. (Remember what I said about a Migraine.)

Most Card games basically work on the principle of stacking actions. When you declare an action, your opponent has an opportunity to react BEFORE it resolves, and you then have opportunity to react and take an action BEFORE his resolves, and so on. Stacking one action on top of the other. When no one can take any more actions they resolve in reverse back down the stack. Once they resolve a NEW series of actions can commence.

There is language in the FAQ for understanding the eraser cards in the same fashion. It uses the example of Acceptable loss, describing it's effect being reversed. But notice the next statement: "Because of eraser cards like this you should generally WAIT to see which card your opponent responds with (if any) before you move on to your next action..." So this does describe allowing your opponent the opportunity to REACT to your action with one of your own:

Action 1: Dogfight is played
Response to Action 1 is Action 2: Assassin droid is played
Take note: there is NO RESPONSE to action 2, thus:
Assassin droid RESOLVES and Dogfight is discarded.

Obi-Wan is played. This is NOT action 3. The player could have picked any other card he wanted, and this would start a NEW series of actions. He happens to play Obi-Wan.
We are now at Action 1 again: Obi-Wan is played.
There is nothing for it's gametext to affect, as there is no previous Action in the stack.
Assassin Droid and Obi-Wan both remain in play, and the players role for hits.

Now, where is my Tylenol?

Offline fanaticopposition

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2007, 11:36:18 PM »
There is nothing for it's gametext to affect, as there is no previous Action in the stack.
Assassin Droid and Obi-Wan both remain in play, and the players role for hits.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I think some of you are having trouble understanding the basic mechanics. Obi-wans effect will effect the assassin droid if obi-wan was played first but remember playing obi-wan from your hand happens as a result of the assassin droids effect resolving. If it did not resolve, the card would not be removed and a new card played (i.e. Obi Wan). Now if the card were to activate its affect again (impossible but just to make things clear) THEN obi-wan could cancel it. I think some of you are are not thinking rationaly about it...sit down, take a few minuets draw a picture if you must, but use common sense and it will hit you eventually. Its really quite simple to understand. Really, we just need a ruling. I don't see how they could override logic but you never know.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 11:58:03 PM by fanaticopposition »


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Offline Riptide

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Re: Time-Reversal question - Assassin Droid vs Obi-Wan
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2007, 12:02:05 AM »
Fanaticopposition. You are correct in noting that most games would use a stack. However, there appears to be no actual stack in this game (I have not read the FAQ just what has been posted here and I haven't seen it mentioned. Forgive me if it is mentioned in the FAQ). The way the rules are set-up, Assassin Droid is not played as a response by the defender, but instead as the normal option provided whether the attacker plays a card or not. This seems to imply that Obi-wan could be played in response, it would just lead into the infinite loop mentioned above.

Of course the only difference in the outcomes from our different interpretations is that your method has Obi-wan as being played and using his combat bonus (but not text), and my method makes it practically impossible to play him in this situation. I will be interested when an official ruling is given on this.
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