Author Topic: Stealth Shipping: Stowaway/Infiltrator Units?Hangar Deck and Dagobah Swamp  (Read 617 times)

Offline gethralkin

  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2515
  • Force: 138
  • "Hey... It's me!"
    • Star Wars PocketModel TCG Online
This an observation I made of two cards from different sets with the same item number (bs076 and cw076). I just noticed something I hadn't before that would create a VERY interesting game dynamic when paired with cards like Dagobah Swamp. Hangar Bay specifically states moving a :hangar: unit but does not specify whether the unit belongs to the player or an opponent. So, one could effectively use 2 HBs and a DS to move a :hangar: unit to the opponent's HZ and be able to retrieve 2 :star: units from reserves into the opponent's HZ as per the text on the HB ability that literally states "Whenever you move a..." and not "Whenever you move your..." Allow me to elaborate.



So, from above, we see a home zone (HZ)?let's say that it is yours?with two revealed Hangar Bay (HB) objectives and a Devastator (IPuPp3 :carrier: unit) that has just initiated a strike on the hidden objective, which has been flipped to reveal it as a Dagobah Swamp (DS) objective.

From the ability text on DS, you may move :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: of opposing unit(s) from anywhere into that opponent's HZ. You decide to move your opponent's Devastator.
Because it is a :carrier: unit, the ability text on the other two cards activate and because of the nature of their text not preventing them to do so, they stack.
The HB ability reads (emphasis mine), "Whenever you move a :carrier: unit into your opponent's home zone, you may put a :star: unit from your reserves into that zone."
Therefore, regardless of who the :carrier: unit belongs to, if you were the one who moved it, then you get to drop a :star: unit into that HZ per HB in play. In this case, you moved your opponent's Devastator and then drop 2 :star: units in his HZ.

Now, this doesn't have to happen during a strike initiated by your opponent, but this is the most useful outcome out of the other possible plays involving these two cards because you get two units into an opposing HZ before your Objective Phase begins.

Another possible instance is when you play DS during your Objective Phase and the :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: unit is in your HZ. You move a :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: unit out of your HZ and get to drop in two :star: units with it?all before your Combat Phase.

The final situation is when your opponent's :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: unit is in the CZ and you play DS. This is almost as useful a move as the previous two plays, because waiting until the  :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: unit has made all the way to your HZ (although riskier) set's your opponent back more and sets you up for a counter attack.

I know that this is not the spirit of the HB card, being that it is simulating the unloading of a hangar by a cap ship when it reaches its destination. However, the game has semantics that make for creative advantages to be taken to come up with new roles that the cards and units play. In this case, two :star: units hide as stowaway infiltrators on the opposing cap ship, much like Han's use of the Falcon's clamp to attach to a Star Destroyer. Except that these units launch and attack when the cap ship returns to port.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 07:34:18 AM by gethralkin »

Offline slightlyiffy

  • Development Group
  • ****
  • Posts: 500
  • Force: 56
 
I just noticed something I hadn't before that would create a VERY interesting game dynamic when paired with cards like Dagobah Swamp. Hangar Bay specifically states moving a :hangar: unit but does not specify whether the unit belongs to the player or an opponent. So, one could effectively use 2 HBs and a DS to move a :hangar: unit to the opponent's HZ and be able to retrieve 2 :star: units from reserves into the opponent's HZ as per the text on the HB ability that literally states "Whenever you move a..." and not "Whenever you move your..."

Thoughts?

 
 [c]cw076[/c]

 Whenever you move a  :carrier:  unit into your opponents home zone....

Without getting into the semantics of the card & interpretation of what is printed one would have to take the a in the card statement itself to be differentiating that a fleet may have more than 1 :carrier: unit & in this case it represents the statement "your" which would need quantifying with "one of your" .
As I said, not impossible but improbable.


 :fett:





« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 10:36:43 AM by slightlyiffy »
............. "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"

:fett:  Trades here for my 10 11 12 13 14 15 year old's battle fleets  :maul:

Offline Donosis

  • Development Group
  • ****
  • Posts: 1611
  • Force: 40
  • Galaxy .ent "Your Galactic supplier."
Seems legit.
"In these times, a smile from a Jedi is a hopeful sign."―Cal Omas
"I'm in control. I make the rules now." - Cad Bane
"Jedi, huh? My fee just went up. A lot." - Cad Bane
"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one." - Skipper

Offline E_Lair

  • Development Group
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • Force: 55
It's been a while since I've given serious thought to a rules problem, but I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I don't think Dagobah Swamp can cause Hangar Bay to trigger under any circumstances.
HB triggers "Whenever you move a :carrier: unit". This refers to a move action, or cards such as Jedi Academy or Orders: Strategic Advance which can cause a unit to be moved.
DB states that you "put" opposing units into their HZ - not "move". "Move" is between neighbouring Zones: "Put" is used when units can be taken directly from one HZ to another, or are brought in from Reserves.

Like I said though, it's been a while since I've had to negotiate this sort of card pedantry, so I'm not 100% certain here. I seem to remember the whole issue of "move" vs "put" being discussed a lot in relation to the "Move after moving" debate...

[Edit]
Actually, Geth: I've just noticed that you addressed this question yourself a while back, in relation to why Probe Droid doesn't cause Hangar Bay to trigger... http://swpocketmodels.com/forum/index.php?topic=3101.msg46896#msg46896
[/Edit]

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 07:07:45 PM by E_Lair »

Offline stlnprfln

  • Development Group
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • Force: 55
  • Woo Woo Woo... You Know It.
I was really gonna let Geth have it for this one til I saw Lair's post. E said what I was thinking before I even read his post, although I wasn't gonna go as detailed. Basically, DS ain't a move action. Therefore no trigger for HB. Geth needs some down time yo. He slippin. HA HA AH AH AH AH HA HA HA HA

2013 SWPM WORLD CHAMPION!!!!!!!

I made the 12 hour drive. I showed up to the tournament. I was undefeated. Prove me wrong!!!

Offline ender4449

  • Jedi Knight
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Force: 22
It's been a while since I've given serious thought to a rules problem, but I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I don't think Dagobah Swamp can cause Hangar Bay to trigger under any circumstances.
HB triggers "Whenever you move a :carrier: unit". This refers to a move action, or cards such as Jedi Academy or Orders: Strategic Advance which can cause a unit to be moved.
DB states that you "put" opposing units into their HZ - not "move". "Move" is between neighbouring Zones: "Put" is used when units can be taken directly from one HZ to another, or are brought in from Reserves.

Like I said though, it's been a while since I've had to negotiate this sort of card pedantry, so I'm not 100% certain here. I seem to remember the whole issue of "move" vs "put" being discussed a lot in relation to the "Move after moving" debate...

[Edit]
Actually, Geth: I've just noticed that you addressed this question yourself a while back, in relation to why Probe Droid doesn't cause Hangar Bay to trigger... http://swpocketmodels.com/forum/index.php?topic=3101.msg46896#msg46896
[/Edit]



While E_Lair is right I believe the intent of the card Hangar Bay is when you use a move action to move a :carrier: into an opponents HZ.

!!WARNING!! MTG Nerd moment The difference here is like the difference between casting Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and putting it onto the battlefield with Elvish Piper. Fret not, while I wont go into detail there is a difference and a very large one at that. END MTG nerd moment

However while the intent may have been when using a move action, there is another example that shows intent and printing don't always agree... I'm looking at you Master's Touch
"Fix it 'till it breaks" -^^

Offline gethralkin

  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2515
  • Force: 138
  • "Hey... It's me!"
    • Star Wars PocketModel TCG Online
Re: Stealth Shipping: Stowaway/Infiltrator Units?Hangar Deck and Dagobah Swamp
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 06:56:47 PM »
It's been a while since I've given serious thought to a rules problem, but I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I don't think Dagobah Swamp can cause Hangar Bay to trigger under any circumstances.
HB triggers "Whenever you move a :carrier: unit". This refers to a move action, or cards such as Jedi Academy or Orders: Strategic Advance which can cause a unit to be moved.
DB states that you "put" opposing units into their HZ - not "move". "Move" is between neighbouring Zones: "Put" is used when units can be taken directly from one HZ to another, or are brought in from Reserves.

Like I said though, it's been a while since I've had to negotiate this sort of card pedantry, so I'm not 100% certain here. I seem to remember the whole issue of "move" vs "put" being discussed a lot in relation to the "Move after moving" debate...

Actually, Geth: I've just noticed that you addressed this question yourself a while back, in relation to why Probe Droid doesn't cause Hangar Bay to trigger... http://swpocketmodels.com/forum/index.php?topic=3101.msg46896#msg46896
Ah! I was focusing on the "put" in HB rather than the "put" in DS. Yes, you are correct, and + :force: to you for catching that. Nicely done, sir.

And, yes ender, the intent was obviously for the move action, but stacking wasn't much thought out either in some cases. Stacking isn't even mentioned in the rules or FAQs. So, it goes to show that you can never make rules without someone finding some exploit to use.

HOWEVER, the moving of the unit could be initiated and stacked with HB(s). Let's find some interesting interactions here. What cards and situations can you find to be creative with this?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 07:00:36 PM by gethralkin »